Interview with EM

1. EM: Information technology should penetrate all subjects, but how can they do that if they don't have the basic skills? We have been working now for more than two years already, trying to teach them the basic skills. Almost two-thirds of the subject teachers have gone through courses of the basic skills of using computers, but there are not enough courses in Universities. Young teachers come out from University and they have to start going to special TigerLeap courses, because in only a few faculties do they really have the skills and the knowledge. And that makes it very difficult. Because even if the teacher wants to use it, he or she does not have the skills. So what happened. Subject teachers have started to produce software themselves. And they have started to use information technology themselves at school, without University. And now what we are trying to is flexible those materials together and some of those people together, and make it more professional and put on higher level and then use those same teachers in training of the teachers. Because it will take a long time before universities will change. So until then, we have to do it this way!

2. AF: It became clear to me, in the discussions that I have had, that the written curriculum is vital. In America they have a national document. But if you go to school, but they don't know about it. In England they have had IT in the curriculum for quite some time, since 1989, but in talking to some of the people there, they said it is only in the last couple of years that it has begun to take off. It was only when they went back to what teachers knew, and made links with the ICT curriculum, that things started to happen. What I have done, I have brought with me three of the booklets from the current UK program, to illustrate the way they are going. I don't know if you have seen these documents?

3. EM: No

4. AF: This is for initial teacher training, this is for teachers who are already teaching Art, with the curriculum and a commentary. They spell out in concrete terms how you can use computers for teaching art. There are booklets for each subject.

5. EM: Where did you get these from?

6. AF: The teacher training agency. That's what they have done. They have taken each subject and specified the way in which computers can be used.

7. EM: But is very good thing actually. But what about the integrated approach?

8. AF: This integrates it into the subject.

9. EM: What I had in mind was integrating the subjects together.

10. AF: I know what you mean, for the cross discipline nature of learning. They have not gone that way. And I think the reason they have not gone that way is the thing that you pointed out at the very beginning of our conversation. The teachers. That is why I am saying that unless you start from where the teachers are, it is very difficult to move them on. The digital media allows you of course to cross between the subjects.

11. EM: Of course there is another difficult point. If the teacher really wants to be more professional, then they of course start lifelong learning. They cannot avoid it any more. But is a good thing, but there are only a small number of teachers who are ready for that. A larger number of teachers are asking, so what do I get out of it? They don't care so much to be professional, but they care more about the level of salary.

12. AF: We had exactly that in Tasmania, where the teachers were asking for more salary. For a year while negotiations were proceeding, the government did nothing about computers. Because then the teachers would say it they needed more pay for the new skills.

13. EM: We have produced some CD-ROMs for teachers, to help them. One is Estonian vertebrates. The second one will come out soon, and that is Estonian plants. On this CD there is information, and there is also a web site which also has tests and supportive material. So this CD connects to the Internet.

14. AF: That is good. And also very good for the schools that do not have an Internet connection.

15. EM: That is why we produced it.

16. AF: Tasmania used to produce a lot of software. That is one of the reasons I decided to move there. It is a small country with a population of about half a million, and produced an amazing amount of software.

17. EM: In which language?

18. AF: In English. Not in Tasmanian! But it could not continue to do this. It was very very expensive. We had the same sort of situation as yourself. We have three large towns, and half the population is not in the towns, it is in the rural areas. Very small schools. You cannot support, with that kind of population, your own software manufacturing.

19. EM: But what is essential, I think, is that small nations should know foreign languages. Should know well. They have to study English.

20. AF: I would be interested in the availability of automatic translation software. I can do English to Spanish, which I do with friends in Uruguay. It is alright providing you do not use colloquial English. It is all right if you use very factual language. Do you have that sort of software here?

21. EM: No I don't think so.

22. AF: I know that you can buy other European languages. Do you use the Altavista search engine?

23. EM: Yes.

24. AF: I have astonished our faculty members by showing them our homepage on the Web in Spanish. Because the software automatically translates each web page into Spanish for you.

25. EM: But it is only English to Spanish?

26. AF: No there are about five or six languages involved, French German, Spanish, and so on.

27. EM: But these are big languages.

28. AF: That's true. But the point I am making is that because of the success of the translation between those languages, I am wondering what the likelihood of having Estonian added to the list is like.

29. EM: Very, very difficult, actually. Estonian language is very difficult. We have 14 different intonations.

30. AF: A problem! But that is the sort of tool that would enable a lot of younger students to access a lot of information, from around the world, before they learned another language adequately.

31. EM: Can you show me?

32. AF: If you can open up the Altavista web site we can look at it. [Demonstrates] I have used with various scientific papers, and there the language is very factual. You know your missing something, but you get the important ideas about. You might have discussions with SYSTRAN and find out for how easy it would be to have your language included in their list. It seems to me this would be in a key piece of software for Estonia. You know your own situation better than I do.

33. Can we start on the questions? I'll just read them out.

34. EM: Yes.

35. AF: Do you have a policy framework guiding the use of IT by all students in all subject areas?

36. EM: No

37. AF: The answer is no. But you do have some words in the national curriculum?

38. EM: Yes.

39. AF: I would like to have a copy of those please.

40. EM: Yes, okay.

41. AF: Now, am I right in thinking that the national curriculum is under revision at the moment?

42. EM: Actually they have just finished with one revision. But what we are demanding with the help of our coordinators from all over the country, is that informatics should be in there. At least for some years, as a subject which should be taught. Until we come to the point where it is penetrating all the subjects.

43. AF: That is exactly what they have had to do in England. Their curriculum has had three revisions. In the first edition I. T. was in the technology area. In the second edition, I. T. was a separate subject in its own right. But it had to be taught overall the other subjects. In the third revision IT is still there as a separate subject, but it is also written into every other curriculum area. The most difficult one to get into was physical education.

44. EM: The funny thing in Estonia is that we have groups of people who are working on the different subjects in the curriculum. But I think even they need basic training in using a computer. Then they need to use it for themselves in the class. And then they might be to change the curriculum.

45. AF: That is why we are using the KITOs, something which is devised by the I. T. people, but it is framed in such a way that it is a framework that can be used in all the other subjects. Even though those people don't know about I. T. you can at least make that prescription. When did the national curriculum in Estonia but we're looking at now, come out?

46. EM: It came out about three years ago. Now they are re constructing it a little bit, but these changes will be cosmetic. Not the radical ones we would like to see. As with all curricula there is the general part and subject parts. In the general part and there are some words about I. T. and in the subject parts there are no references to I. T.. But there should be. In Estonia we have a problem, because the curriculum is based on ideas that were put down before the war. In 1939 or so. It is very traditional, very much based on knowledge of facts. There is no training in skills. But also it is very individual. There is no training in the use of research for how to work in a group project. This is essential.

47. AF: We have gone almost the other way in Tasmania. In every subject, for the assessment, they have to prove that they can work in groups, and they also have to prove that they can work individually.

48. EM: There are some things that are easier and more interesting to do in groups.

49. AF: I want to ask, does every student in the country follow this curriculum, or is it only used in some schools?

50. EM: No, this curriculum is for all schools. How they teach this curriculum is another question. They can create a bit of their own curriculum each school as well.

51. AF: About 20 percent?

52. EM: Yes about that. Like informatics, that is one of the optional subjects. So it is very much of to the directors and the teachers.

53. AF: You have said that the curriculum is very, very old...

54. EM: No, no it is very new! But the ideas are old.

55. AF: Tell me why it is that the ideas are old.

56. EM: It is tradition. It was so before the war, and after the war, and in Soviet times, and then now. Each subject has a certain number of lessons. After the war, in Soviet time, and then now. So mathematics had 10 lessons, so now it should have 10 lessons as well. It is very subject centered. For example in science we have biology, geography, physics, chemistry all separate. Each subject has its own time allocation.

57. AF: Okay. I know we're talking about a very few words in your curriculum document, but the people that put those words in there, why did they put them there? What was their objective?

58. EM: I am not even sure what they were thinking about them. Because now we have a more or less normal subject curriculum group going into technology, there are people have been working on teacher training for a very long time, Anne Willems for example, you have probably heard about her. With such people I am sure that some changes will be made. But basically I think that the curriculum was finished about four years ago, but then it became obvious that we cannot avoid information technology, and know exactly what it was all about or how it was going to work, but we should put it in somehow. And then it was written in.

59. AF: I know this is probably guess work on your part, but could they have been thinking about general life when they put I. T. in., or were they thinking specifically about work, about helping students have skills to go into jobs?

60. EM: I doubt it. I think it was a bit of this, and a bit of that. And because it became very IN, four years ago. TigerLeap program was announced as a program for education. They just had to put it in somehow.

61. AF: All right. There are the general words saying, I think, that every student should have a look at a computer.

62. EM: Not exactly. It is written that it is a free subject, and that in the longer run it should be a penetrating subject for all the subjects. But how, who, and when we still have to work out.

63. AF: So the question that I am leading on to is, how successful have schools be in in implementing the curriculum? And how successful has the TigerLeap project been in enabling every child to use a computer at some point?

64. EM: I think it differs in different schools. In some schools I think it has started. Because good subject teachers are seeing that we are using information technology for training, and they are doing it in schools as well. But basically most of the teachers are afraid of giving lessons with computers. They may use it for themselves at home, or in the teachers' room, but they are bit afraid of using it before students. They have to feel very professional before they will go into the lesson and show the subject with the help of new technology. So that I think there is a number of schools where this has been done, more or less. But the larger number of schools do not do it.

65. AF: Is there are a psychological fear? Are we saying that the teachers are unwilling to give up responsibility for leading the lesson?

66. EM: Right. Certainly. This is quite sure. This is where kids are ahead of them. And I think sometimes they are very much ahead of them. If we do not do something crucial.

67. AF: Is not just about computers, it's about using the computers.

68. EM: Right. Kids are very quick in using it. Very quick in learning, and very often teachers might find themselves in a very uncomfortable situation where the night at all, but the kids do. So obviously they are trying to avoid using the thing they use worse than the kids do.

69. AF: So the teachers can accept their role as co- learners alongside the students.

70. EM: Exactly. So the classroom will become a place where they both learning together. When they understand it it will be interesting, it will be fun. But right now it is not. Here is a document about the qualifications of teachers, and there is not a word about information technology. And this is what we are demanding should change.

71. AF: Even if it is a basic sort of statement.

72. EM: Right. But there is an opportunity for the director of the school considering the employment of a teacher to assess their skills. And just one sentence relates to I. T., that just says that the teacher should know how to use a computer, and how to use it in teaching.

73. AF: That is something.

74. EM: But there is no...... and at the same time there are certainty requirements written in if you want to be united to the European Union. And there you will find several sentences where information technology has to be used and integrated into subject teaching, and therefore the knowledge of our subject teachers needs to be improved..

75. AF: So that is going to be a critical thing for you.

76. EM: I think it is going to be a critical thing. I am afraid, it might seem a bit sarcastic, but the ministry people and the higher people have not noticed that those things are written. And the day that they notice they will be a hurry!

77. AF: TigerLeap has been going for two and a half years.

78. EM: Yes.

79. AF: What are your prospects for continuing?

80. EM: Because the first of all, the funding did not start as it was written, two years ago. We talked about hundreds of millions of kroons, but it was reduced to 34 1/2 million kroons for the first year, and 50 million kroons for the second year. And now it's having cuts in the state budget so it is only 47.. Million. This is one thing. The other thing is that things go so slowly. You can't change the environment of teaching overnight. I think that we have found you what are the basic things that can be changed very quickly, and if we can start dealing with them, together with higher officials of course, then the Tiger will Leap.

81. AF: Can you give me some specific ideas of what you would like to achieve in the next two years?

82. EM: I think we should concentrate on teacher training. Concentrate on teacher training and also concentrate on the same thing, that is the integration of information technology into the subject. So that students start using it

83. AF: Right.

84. EM: And also what we would like to change is the situation in the universities, where young teachers come out and they don't know how to use a computer. So at least we have to say it out in a loud voice.

85. AF: What is the relationship between the pupils curriculum and the training of new teachers in University? If you cannot tell the University what skills to teach, then they will not know how to respond.

86. EM: Methodology, methodology this is crucial. For me I think it is very important, but it might be very personal, that the relation between teacher and student is changed. I don't think that it is a problem even in Tasmania, because it is different. But here it is very teacher-centred. School is terribly teacher centred. It should change.

87. AF: Yes, in Tasmania we have a big movement of cooperative learning. Where students work in small groups and make presentations to the rest of the class. They become the teacher for a little bit of the lesson. The teacher sits back and allows one student to address all the rest. The teacher feels comfortable in saying "I did not know that, thank you very much". The cooperative learning movement is certainly very strong. The student teachers that go through our University, have been quite surprised to go into real schools for their practice, and having to speak to whole groups themselves because they have been so used to using cooperative learning techniques. They have only seen cooperative learning. Okay.

88. Question 11 is about which comes first, curriculum change or professional development. From what you are telling me the TigerLeap program concentrate on professional development?

89. EM: Right. Because I think sometimes they go hand in hand. Because once a teacher gets the training, gets the know-how, I think the teacher is ready to change his own curricula and his subject. But this happens locally. If we take it from the state level, it will be a long time.

90. AF: Yes.

91. EM: If you want to make it official. But it goes from those teachers, the best teachers, I think. These come out and they say we're already doing this, what are you doing there?

92. AF: Do those teachers participate in curriculum change, or is the curriculum change done by senior administrators?

93. EM: No. Part of these teachers also participate in those subject working parties that work on curriculum.

94. AF: In Estonia do you use Microsoft Office?

95. EM: Yes, yes. Don't ask me about legal software. I shall not tell you.

96. AF: I met a gentleman who is in Estonia two days ago to do some teacher training, I have forgotten his name, talked to me about Staroffice. Do you know about it?

97. EM: Yes I know Staroffice. I know a Swede who actually produced it. It is Peter Bergman. He was one of those guys that produced it. I think is a good idea to have something for free, and it's almost like Microsoft office, but the picture on the screen is a bit different, but I think that the people who are used to using Microsoft office may find it difficult. But basically it does all the same things. At the same time, while Microsoft is running a large campaign of legalisation, have you heard about it? Where they have penalties for illegal software and take away the computers and give them to schools, and I have seen many schools with large quantities of the illegal software. There is no idea in it at all, but they do not have any better idea as well, so! I know some people use Staroffice, but still.

98. AF: Apparently Dublin University College decided to get rid of all Microsoft products, and used Linux with Staroffice, and the only comment was from the secretaries, the people that use that sort of thing the most. And after they had done the change the comment was "when are you going to do the change?" They did not realise that the change had already happened, because their computers looked almost exactly the same as before the change. Of course it meant that they were now using free software, instead of Microsoft software, commercial software.

99. EM: Which is terribly expensive.

100. AF: Well, we have a system that all Microsoft select scheme. Where the state negotiated with Microsoft, and it means that the unit price drops from $200 to about $20, about 1/10, because it is a bulk purchase.

101. EM: That is a very good deal actually. How do you do it?

102. AF: The state government goes to Microsoft and says, look we want to buy all of the software for the whole state, for all the government offices, the ministries and schools.

103. EM: So how many copies, approximately?

104. AF: I have no idea how many copies we are buying, but our population is one-third the size of your population. So therefore we have much smaller buying power in some ways, than your own.

105. EM: But this is if we're talking about all the organisations and firms.

106. AF: This is the whole of the government not the private companies. So anything which is directly funded by the government, participates in the scheme.

107. EM: Basically we're talking about all our schools, and legalisation of the schools software. It is a big number as well. In this is partly a government purchase because it is funded by the government.

108. AF: But it is not just the schools, if they going with all the ministries and government offices, like the software on your own computer.

109. EM: It comes out of the same fund.

110. AF: Microsoft will usually go for one big deal because it saves them a lot of paperwork.

111. EM: I had dinner with the man who is the head of the Baltics Microsoft. He happens to be the head of this campaign now. He was Danish.

112. AF: The name of the scheme in Australia is the Microsoft select scheme.

113. EM: Okay.

114. AF: I know that Tonis Eelma talked to me about using radio links to connect to the Internet.

115. EM: Yes in some places. We have several options. We have phone lines, and we also have radio lines.

116. AF: Tell me, do you have brochures about the radio links? That is new to me. Do you have the name of the manufacturer of the equipment, and so on.

117. EM: Well actually we have several, manufacturers.

118. AF: The URL of one or two of those would be very useful.

119. EM: Yes okay, okay. We will find it. We have three firms that are doing it.

120. AF: I was astonished at how fast the Internet was using it.

121. EM: I think we're using those higher mobile phone equipment. Do you have many mobile phones in Tasmania?

122. AF: We have very, very many mobile phones. Our connections to the Internet are usually through a land line, with ISDN. It is very slow compared to what have seen here using radio links. Some of our schools call the World Wide Web, the world wide wait. Because if you're in the school, and you try to use the Web, it is very, very slow. Because there are so many people using it at the same time. Normally in our high schools from the age 11 to 18 there is a ratio of 5 students to each computer. So the competition for bandwidth is intense. So if the link from the school to the Internet is only 64 K., you can wait for several minutes for a page to download.

123. You talked about the Finish research, can you keep me some words to search for, to find the details of that research?

124. EM: It is out there on the Internet, and you can read it. It is probably in English as well.

125. AF: Are there the names of some researchers I can use?

126. EM: Mulgrave.

127. AF: Fantastic, thank you.

128. EM: For the wireless networking we use the 3Com group products, then there's the Estonian Film Company, and the Esteei Telephon company. And then there is a wireless network. These firms are doing it.

129. AF: I sent details about the networking in Tartu to Tasmania. I wonder what they going to say about it.

130. EM: In some places the radio equipment works well but, in other places the trees are too high or something like that. It needs space. Some people say that buildings are better off with these networks because it is a lot cheaper. But other people are saying that you have to change your equipment after three years and then it costs as much. So you never know. They have to calculate very thoroughly before the start building one. I think that in Estonia they have used wireless networks because there are simply no lines.

131. AF: I know that in Australia the radio spectrum is being sold. My only worry is that somebody else may have bought that bit of the radio spectrum that we need to be able to use. It is amazing, but that is what the government is doing. They have auctions on a regular basis for bits of radio spectrum in parts of the country. If you want to use a piece of equipment that uses a particular frequency in a particular town, you have to buy a licence for that that bit of spectrum from the government. So I just have to hope that the equipment will come with a licence to use it.